You all should be well aware by now that I am no fan of extremist religious views. As part of this, I rarely side with Islam, as I view a great many of their practices a bit on the “extreme” side. And no, that is not meant to imply I think they are all terrorists – they are not. I merely mean that any religion that condones such rampant sexism is a bit…much…for my tastes.
That said, as long as they remain peaceful, everyone has the right to practice their religion in whatever way they deem appropriate – particularly as it applies to dress. The Amish wear neutral colors and large belt buckles. Pentecostals cover the hair of their women and wear long dresses. Monks wear robes in bright oranges and brown. Mormons wear their modesty undergarments. Muslim women wear veils.
That is, until France’s lower house “overwhelmingly” passed a ban on Muslim veils. Not all veils, mind you – just Muslim veils. Will cancer patients be prohibited from wearing masks? No. Will a deformed individual be forced to go out unshielded from prying eye? No. Will Halloween masks be banned? No. Will Catholics be banned from wearing crosses? Nope. Wiccans from wearing robes? No.
They claim it is to protect the women. That the veils are inconsistent with France’s views on equality. I argue it is a choice to wear that veil. This is France we speak of, not Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. These women chose to practice their faith, they chose to wear the veil. And France has all but taken that choice away from them. Where is the equality now? Where is the freedom of religion?
I am outraged that this anti-Islamic law – and that is what is truly is, xenophobia at its best – has been passed in a country that claims to be progressive! How progressive can you be when you are taking away the rights of the people? The only hope that remains is for France’s Constitutional watchdog to do the right thing and deem this law unconstitutional – as it does seem to violate France’s freedom of religion sections.
For shame, France. I never cared for you but now at least I can justify this bitter dislike.
At the end of the day, I have to say that I agree with your point of view. Outlawing Muslim dress doesn’t free Muslim women from oppression. Many extremist religious beliefs incorporate the oppression of women. That is the issue that needs to be dealt with more so than anything else.
If a woman doesn’t want to wear her veil, she should feel as though she has refuge if her husband becomes enraged and wants to beat her into submission. Or, if a woman becomes an apostate of Islam, she needs to have a sense that law enforcement would take her seriously if she felt like someone was plotting an honor killing against her life.
But to outlaw Muslim traditions of dress is useless, conterproductive, and infringes on freedom of religion.
I do also think that Islam is making many outsiders of that faith nervous. This law is a refection of that nervousness. It’s an unspoken desire to abolish Islam as a whole, thinking that all the oppressive thinking will go away with it. That’s not going to happen.
I am begining to see passed words like “Islam”, “Christianity”, “Christian” and “Muslim”. I think each person who has a religious belief unknowingly tailors his or her own faith out of the values they already deem important. If someone says Islam is peacful, for example, then that person is probably already a peacful person who takes peacful ideas from Islam and builds that personal belief system for one’s self. So, attcking Islam as a whole does no good because you end up attack good people who practice Islam. But anyone who has a belief that is oppressive should be challenged; I don’t care the label that they or others put on such a belief– whether that belief be labeled “Christian”, “Islamic”, “Jewish”, “atheistic” or even “Constitutional”.
Or should I say, “unconstitutional”?
This is a bit ridiculous. It’s religious persecution in my eyes. Some nuns have very conceiling habbits, will they be outlawed too ?
Uruk has a point. A lot of this is backlash because Muslims make people nervous. In the same vein, a lot of Christians scare the shit out of me !
Would I advocate outlawing Christianity? Certainly not. Would I outlaw Islam? No more than Christianity, or any religion, for that matter (with the possible exception of scientology, those guys are freakin’ NUTTZ).
What France needs to focus their ridiculous legislation on is, somehow, making Parisians take a bath more than, I dunno, once a month! Maybe mandate some DO for that French BO ;-)
Mac, you about made me fall out of my chair! I have a buddy who spent time in Paris (why, I will never know…) and he says they smell so bad he is surprised we can’t pick up their scent from across the Atlantic!
I was there for 4 days. That was enough!
There is beauty there, but it certainly is not found in the olfactory glands.
And, as you have taught me, those beautiful cathedrals stand as a testament to the oppressive history of the church.
I’ve always heard that the French could be rude, but I never heard that many of them have bad BO.
Reminds me of a comedian who claimed to have a roommate in college who used crystals rather than deodorant to control BO. He says that his roommate stunk all the time because the crystals didn’t work. He said that she also acted as though the crystals were magical or something.
Then his punch lines goes something like:
“Oh, they were magic crystals alright. They magically made a vegetarian smell like chilly dogs.”
“It me hungry and disgusted me all at the same time.”
Ah . . . c’est la vie.
As an American Muslim woman, I think all religions have a right to practice their faith as they see fit, as long as their practices are not harming themselves or others.
One of the arguments supporting the niqab (face veil) ban in France is that the niqab is not mandatory in Islam, therefore if France allows women to wear the hijab (the head cover only) then they are not infringing on a Muslim’s religious beliefs. But that’s not entirely true. There are scholars of Islasm who say that the niqab is highly recommended while others say it is in fact mandatory. A person’s practice (in any faith) will be heavily determined by the school of thought they follow, so while some Muslim women may not feel that the niqab is mandatory, others feel equally as strongly that it is. I don’t wear it, but I think it’s cool. I tried it on a few times going to the mosque and I felt like a super hero. It was pretty awesome.
I like what you said about this ban being specifically for Muslims, and not for Halloween, those susceptible to germs, or anyone with a deformity — I agree. I do not however agree, or appreciate you saying that Islam “condones rampant sexism.” That sentence in the first graph shows your ignorance about the faith and its practices.
In Islam, there is not gender equality, because men and women cannot be equal. We were designed anatomically differently (hence our boy and girl parts) but both the man and woman have rights and responsibilities towards each other, which differ, but are equal in how God distributed them. For you to make a blanket statement about any faith is irresponsible, and offensive.
I won’t let my irritation by that statement cloud the fact that I do appreciate your views in the third graph. So bravo to you for saying that. But you should know that until you speak with a scholar of Islam about the roles that men and women play in marriage and society, and truly understand that every guideline in Islam was ordained with God’s wisdom and mercy, then you should consider the weight of your words before you speak or type them.
Five facts about women in Islam that you probably didn’t know.
1. Islam was the first religion to let women join the military.
2. Muslim women had the right to vote AND hold office before any other society in the world.
3. It is the right of a Muslim woman to orgasm during sex with her husband, and it is clearly stated in a Hadith (saying of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him) that it is the man’s duty to satisfy his wife even after he has been satisfied. (Better take a swag of that Gatorade, and keep going!)
4. A Muslim woman has rights to her husband’s earnings while a man does not have rights to his wife’s money, property or inheritance. Her earnings are her own to do with what she pleases. She can use her money to pay charity to her husband if she wishes, whereas he cannot pay alms to his wife as it is her right to be cared for.
5. Pre Islam, in the pagan tribes of Arabia, fathers used to bury their daughters alive as a common practice in their culture. When Islam came, that practice was banned, giving rights to infant girls who didn’t have a voice.
A good CD lecture series if you care to expand your mind: “The Lives of the Wives of the Prophet” by Imam Suhaib Webb. He’s a white American convert to Islam born and raised in Cali.
I agree with The Lion here Sabrina, and I’m a male.
Your very statement confirms sexism. Woman and men are not equal because you have girl parts and we have boy parts ??
No, that should not enter into the equation in regards to equality. The only place our genitals make us different is in the bedroom (or wherever you prefer). In the car driving to work, we are the same. At work, we are the same. Returning to that car to drive home, we are all the same.
Our place in society should be placed on MERIT, not gender.
As per your personal relationships, be subjective if you wish. I prefer an equal, no person should be treated as less than equal, girl parts or not.
You know what? I take back my comments. I just reread your statement, Sabrina, and I am shocked by how much I missed.
What causes your support for censorship? Why should I have to speak with a scholar to understand your faith? I don’t believe one needs to speak with a scholar to understand my faith – it is cut and dry: God created Man. Man Fell. God created Laws to govern Man after the Fall. Man continued to Fall. God sent the Son to save us. We killed him. He saved us anyone and still loves us. We will all die in the end, but those who live well will be rewarded.
Am I critical of Islam? Yes, I am. Because I see Islam as in the same place Christianity was in 500 years ago – a rather Dark Age. The very fact that you use anatomical differences to state we are not equal shows sexism. Different can still be equal. Equal does not mean identical – that is a fallacy that too many sexists fall back upon. I never claimed I was the same as a man. I claim I am equal in my rights and responsibilities to every man.
Sabrina, I do welcome you here and I hope you don’t take this too harshly. I am not attacking you or your right to your faith. I am merely attacking a blind following that I find dangerous – in all religions.
And Mohammed? No praise or peace is upon him here. His actions with Aisha are shameful. And again, I mean no offense to you – but I find offense that you praise a man (and a man, he was) who married a child.
Welcome, Sabrina. I am sorry you disagree with my take on Islam, however it is based on experience and firsthand knowledge. Any faith that determines a woman’s place for her, condones rampant sexism.
Any culture that thinks it is appropriate to determine who a woman will marry, condones sexism. Any culture that thinks giving a woman a right to her husband’s money (thereby suggesting she cannot possibly care for herself, alone!) condones sexism.
I am not sure why it was relevant for you to mention that Webb is white and American, but I have heard of him and I tend to think he waters down some of what your books say.
Now, is that to say all Muslims practice sexism? Hardly. I work with a lovely Muslim man who treats his wife as his equal, as he does all women. However, even he will admit that this is 1. not all that common in Islam and 2. Not at all what many of the leaders teach.
Sabrina, do not take offense here. Nearly all (if not all) religions condone rampant sexism. It is disgusting, but it is a fact of the world.
Not everyone who claims to be part of a religion will practice it the same way. Just as Sabrina said, “A person’s practice (in any faith) will be heavily determined by the school of thought they follow, so while some Muslim women may not feel that the niqab is mandatory, others feel equally as strongly that it is.”
This is one of many examples of how religion ultimately is up to the person who practices it. That’s why Islam, Christianity, Judaism– you name it– all have peaceful and militant followers mixed in under the same labels.
This is why outsiders of a religion should not lump everyone into the same stereotype and attack everyone in a faith. And this is also why peaceful worshipers of a religion need to realize that not everyone who uses the same religious label has the same wholesome intentions.
I’ve heard the same argument in Christian circles about women and men not being equal genders, yet they are both just as valuable in God’s eyes. They have roles to fulfill towards each other which are unique to the gender. That ideology sounds good. And if everyone involved is truly happy, then that’s cool with me. But many take that ideology and use it to keep women oppressed. Never mind the name of the religion. It’s done quite often in the name of religion– which ever one you’d like to pick.
A person’s religion should come first in one’s life if that’s what they want. A person’s religious beliefs shouldn’t invade the lifestyle of anyone else, either. Laws of government shouldn’t do this either– so long as on one is hurt or violated. I believe you, Sabrina, voiced a similar sentiment.
Uruk, the problem is that stating men and women are not equal is stating one is greater than the other. You cannot say 2 and 3 are not equal but 3 is not greater than 2.
Every major religion is guilty of separating the genders. And every major religion practices sexism by doing so. There is nothing not sexist about saying a woman serves her husband. Yes, men are called to treat their wives well. But so are they called to treat their slaves well.
As you might have noticed, this is one of my larger issues with the Church. Their blatant refusal to acknowledge that I am their equal.
Oh, I agree with you, Lion. Good analogy with the numbers, by the way.
I was just saying that I used to buy into that sort of dichotomy concerning the sexes. I once thought that way as a former Christian and I was taught that in nearly every church I ever attended.
When I first got married, my mother-in-law wondered why she didn’t fix my dinner plate and wait on me hand and foot when we sat down to eat. That was a woman’s job in her mind– to make me happy as her “Husband”. My wife resented that notion. I didn’t care either way.
As I got older and wiser, I started to disagree strongly disagree with the notion that my wife had a duty of complete servitude towards me. My wife works just as hard as I do. I don’t come home every day as the sole bread winner. I don’t make enough to even do that. How can I come home from work and wonder why my wife won’t cater to me when she’s been working as long as I have? Not everyone can support a family with only one income. If that were a requirement for starting a family, then a lot more people should never have gotten married.
I have learned many times to “step-up” and be a man and lead my household. My wife looks to me for that sometimes. But even then, leadership isn’t being a brute and barking orders at people. Leadership is setting good goals and getting everyone involved in reaching them. Facilitating cooperation, giving and receiving input, and making decisions together is all part of good leadership.
Back when I was still in church, I knew a fellow who was engaged to be married. He was incensed about something his fiancée said or did. He was complaining to me about it. He walked off in anger saying, “She needs to realize that I’m the head and she’s the tail”.
I knew he was in trouble with that sort of thinking.
I bet you can guess that the wedding date never happened.
Wow. I am blown. You hide behind anonymity and insult things you don’t even understand. If you’re going to practice or learn about any faith, you do need scholars. If you go to college, you need professors, it’s the same thing. If you, or I, or anyone is going to practice a faith, we can’t be so arrogant as to say, “Well, I don’t need a house of worship, or a specific book, or help from experts because I’ll just figure it out on my own.”
Any ideology I don’t agree with in any religion or culture was an opinion I formulated AFTER I took classes in college, and spoke with those religions’ clergymen. I was raised in a family that encouraged me to understand other peoples’ truth first before I formed my own opinions. And even after I formed my own opinions, I was taught to deliver them in a way that would not be hurtful, or insulting to others.
My “boy and girl parts” comment was obvious sarcasm, but men and women are not equal. Will a man ever carry a baby? No. Therefore there are various rights, responsibilities and rewards for a the role of a husband/father, and wife/mother. Genders will always be separate because we are different. Uruk said it very eloquently in the comment above — fix yourself first, and if you and your family are happy, then so be it.
I absolutely don’t feel welcome here after the horrific attacks you made against one of God’s prophets and his wife. But I’m not surprised that you would say something like that because that’s the “staple attack” that people who share your belief system always go with. That and jihad — both of which you don’t understand but like, the only thing you can hang on to.
Here’s the thing, I don’t need to feel welcome here because it’s your blog. (Well, you took it back anyway, so I guess I’m not). I only followed a comment you left on BlogHer, and I wanted to see if you were worth reading. As a Muslim who worships one God with no partners, and respects and loves ALL his prophets, Moses, Jesus, Adam, Noah, Muhammad, Lot, Joseph, Abraham, Jonah, and many, many more, (peace be upon them all) no matter what I felt about ANY religion, I would never make statements without knowing facts.
If you’ve been disappointed by religion, or you truly don’t like what some religions teach, that’s your business. But if you’re going to hate something have a real stance. Like, don’t say you don’t like broccoli when you’ve never tried it. If you, or others truly don’t believe what a religion teaches, then have enough courage and humility to do a little research. At least that way your arguments will have some standing.
As far as your Muslim co-worker, good for him. Unfortunately, culture plays a HUGE role in every religion. I know of Christian women in the south are raised to think women shouldn’t work. A lot of Muslim men DON’T want their wives to cover their hair. Who cares? Everyone has their preferences, and as long as you talk about these things pre-marriage, then you can choose if you want to be with that person (and their beliefs) or not.
I said Suhaib Webb was white and American because I thought you would relate to someone like you. I related to him because he’s American, and relatively young. Though I’m not surprised that you have an answer for everything. Now you don’t like Suhaib Webb because he’s balanced and gentle? Perfect. Also, I know this is going to sound REALLY, REALLY, REALLY weird…but I think I know who you are. There’s quite a large chance that I’m wrong, but I can’t shake this feeling I’ve had since I came here for the first time yesterday.
Anyway, this has been less than fun, and I can’t say this blog has caught my interest enough to stay. But it looks like you guys were doing fine without me, anyway so I’m sure I won’t be missed. Mac, enjoy your boy parts while you drive.
Oh, Sabrina you have been so brainwashed. You do not need scholars to practice faith. You need the ability to read, contemplate and pray. Nothing more. I don’t need some pompous person to tell me what is True.
Men and woman are not the same – but we are equal. You may not like it, you may accept people telling you it is not true, but it is true. My rights and responsibilities are the same as any man. As for your comment about carrying children – is an infertile woman then equal to a man? Is that what it takes in your mind?
People who share my belief? And what is my belief, Sabrina? Do you know of my faith? Or are you really just arguing that Mohammed did the right thing by marrying a six year old?
I don’t hate Islam, Sabrina. I think it has a place and is a beautiful faith when practiced to the right intent. I do not, however, appreciate the sexism that exists within the Muslim community, nor do I praise a man who married a child.
Sabrina, what makes you assume I need someone like me to relate to? As for Suhaib Webb, he is not balanced nor gentle. He waters down the negative sides of Islam or blatantly ignores them. He is like the Pat Robertson of Islam: refusing to see the evil.
And yes, you are wrong Sabrina. You don’t know me. But you are welcome to come back anytime. You shouldn’t take words so seriously. But, for your own personal growth, your rabid anger at my words only shows insecurity in your faith.
This isn’t my blog and I can’t speak for The Lion, but I think we need more dialog with Muslims in this day and age. Sabrina, you say that we were doing just fine without you and that you won’t be missed, but that’s not necessarily the case even though our opinions may sound hostile to you.
How can this be?
We are social beings who also have a drive for survival in a competitive environment; Conflict will always arise. But we also have great potential for reconciliation and cooperation. People will always offend others either inadvertently or on purpose. But working through rough moments in life is necessary sometimes in order to finally get past one’s preconceived notions.
In matters of faith, people have different opinions about how important any particular scripture text is. Or the scholars of that text, for that matter. There is something good to be said of hearing someone else’s view point before making a judgement. But people will disagree with you about as much as you disagree with other people. That’s all the more reason why we need to talk more with those who are different from us and maintain an open dialog in spite of the differences.
We can all learn to agree to disagree.
You can speak for me anytime, Uruk. You do so in such an eloquent way.
Thanks for such kind words, Lion.
Speaking of words, seems you’ve had fewer to say (at least on your blog). Life got you bogged down? I think I can sympathize. I feel like I’m being pulled away, too. Anyhow, thanks again. And I hope all is well.
All is well enough Uruk. I have just been dealing with … a lot of changes. Things will kick back up around here. I promise. Hell, I own the domain for four more years – can’t stop now, can I?